Curse

Calista Blackblood · Dec 11, 2010, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Please try to stay on topic. Thank you.

FoxBat · Dec 11, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Even with the buff to healing burst, i still see no real reason to take a monk into general pve, unless i was forced to by profession restraints(ie, nightfall missions). Me/Rt, N/rt, and Rt/any all outclass a Monk due to the availability of energy management and a way to actually contribute to the offensive capabilities of the team in a significant way.

I specifically mentioned the "xinrae spammer" template which does NOT contribute to offense in a significant way as the point of comparison. If you sub in a mediocre elite like icy veins then the comparison hasn't changed much either. The fact that n/rt has much better energy management does not necessarily mean much when your spirit lights don't have a party heal attached to them. The point is even weaker with Me/Rt and Rt/X have to burn skill slots on their energy manage, which is what a Mo/Me would do anyway. You can point to life and pwk but then you can also slap dwyna's sorrow if you have an MM in your party.

In the current H/H setup I would generally not spend a slot on a full time healer, but some people do in some situations, and when 2-manning or with the upcoming 7 heroes, having a dedicated healer hero is not out of the question.

JDRyder · Dec 11, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

with the upcoming 7 heroes,

When are they adding that?

LifeInfusion · Dec 11, 2010, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If it's the party heal you want, UA trumps this by a long way. The upshot is a slightly stronger single target heal (Burst outdoes Gift) and some compression - you can take extra utility. I have to choose two of hex removal, condition removal and energy management (you can usually run without the latter, it's only a real issue with energy denial).
I'm of the opinion you have way too much bar push in that build - Dismiss/Mend and Cure Hex are fine to take, but DKiss is then overkill.

Nope. Gift > Burst. Sure you get 1 second less cooldown, but UA + 10 Healing Gift of Health is 165-170ish whereas 14 Healing Bust is 150.

Only advantage to burst is not having to position yourself to hit all the melees with the party heal, and not having to fork over 7 energy every time you need a smallish party heal. Also you don't need to worry about UA being stripped.

I suspect burst is better on a hero for positioning reasons. It's a really braindead skill.

Life Bringing · Dec 11, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I specifically mentioned the "xinrae spammer" template which does NOT contribute to offense in a significant way as the point of comparison. If you sub in a mediocre elite like icy veins then the comparison hasn't changed much either. The fact that n/rt has much better energy management does not necessarily mean much when your spirit lights don't have a party heal attached to them. The point is even weaker with Me/Rt and Rt/X have to burn skill slots on their energy manage, which is what a Mo/Me would do anyway. You can point to life and pwk but then you can also slap dwyna's sorrow if you have an MM in your party.

In the current H/H setup I would generally not spend a slot on a full time healer, but some people do in some situations, and when 2-manning or with the upcoming 7 heroes, having a dedicated healer hero is not out of the question.

if you're referring to a n/rt as a bar with 7 resto skills and sols, urdoinitwrong. I usually only use ~3 resto skills on my /rts, which is more than enough. The me/rt has the best caster shutdown in the game while still dealing damage. The energy management on this bar happens to come in a form of protting(interrupting enemy spells) but I won't mention that because monks will be using them as well. Rits have the full power of SoS, splinter, etc behind them. Necros have solid physical shutdown through EB and SoF, which is basically a maintainable aegis, as well as SS, PoD, etc. Regardless of how much damage they truly do, they contribute far more to the team offensively and even defensively than a monk.

Regarding Dwayna's sorrow, the party healing rarely comes at a useful time, with the minions being nuked out early or not dying when that HM aoe lands right on your party. Even then, if you really wanted it, you could easily slot it on your MM or whatever is carrying SoH.

Another point is, when are you actually being pressured out in pve where a ~30 point heal every 4.75 seconds is acually going to be of much use? One of the main reasons to use pwk is because, assuming a full hero team, you can instantly heal the party for ~140(and another 140 a second later) to counter the real threat in pve: largescale aoe.

Xenomortis · Dec 11, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Nope. Gift > Burst. Sure you get 1 second less cooldown, but UA + 10 Healing Gift of Health is 165-170ish whereas 14 Healing Bust is 150.

The shorter recharge (even one second) is more valuable than +15-20 on the heal.

Wenspire · Dec 12, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Also the +1pip of EN regen compared to running Gift with UA.

AndroBubbles · Dec 13, 2010, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Also the +1pip of EN regen compared to running Gift with UA.

This. I can literally sit on my 40/40 set with healing burst now and keep up a half decent PuG, which the occasional pre-prot/seed of life. It's such an energy efficient skill that I never needed to use selfless spirit with a WoH hero supporting me, and Oggy didn't even have to use WoH. Just the occasional Patient Spirit or Dwayna's Kiss. He did more hex cleaning than anything else, to be honest.

Chthon · Dec 13, 2010, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

This. I can literally sit on my 40/40 set with healing burst now and keep up a half decent PuG, which the occasional pre-prot/seed of life. It's such an energy efficient skill that I never needed to use selfless spirit with a WoH hero supporting me, and Oggy didn't even have to use WoH. Just the occasional Patient Spirit or Dwayna's Kiss. He did more hex cleaning than anything else, to be honest.

Or you can run Selfless Spirit (+AoS) and spam HBurst, PLUS 10e stuff like PS. You can also use HBurst like LoD and just cast on the recharge at whoever has lowest hp.

AndroBubbles · Dec 13, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Or you can run Selfless Spirit (+AoS) and spam HBurst, PLUS 10e stuff like PS. You can also use HBurst like LoD and just cast on the recharge at whoever has lowest hp.

I was more testing efficacy without resorting to energy management from the get-go, and it fared pretty well either way. Those without access to some pve skills will still get good usage from Healing Burst if they use it correctly. Protting is key though, once you get to more difficult areas.

LifeInfusion · Dec 13, 2010, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I am trying out Healing Burst Hero in place of UA (since they don't use Divine Healing in the best possible position):

12+1=13 Heal
11+1+1=13 DF
6+1=7 Prot

Healing Burst
Dwayna's Kiss
Cure Hex
Vigorous Spirit (for D-Kiss)/Healing Seed (needs micro to not waste 10 energy)
Shield of Absorption
Prot Spirit (needs micro)
Mend condition/ailment (needs micro)
Res Chant (simply because they can't use PvE skills like Selfless Spirit)

It's a shame I can't pump Prot without making the build hurt badly, then I can put Aegis in there.

Maybe
11+1+1 Healing Prayers
8 + 1 Protection Prayers
10 + 2 Divine Favor
6 Inspiration and drop in Power drain

Tried

10+1+2 DF
12+1 Heal
8+1 Prot

Heroes don't use Vigorous Spirit properly so I'd drop it for Aegis.

Only dropped below 20 energy when I did stupid stuff on purpose to simulate a PUG (getting 3 groups). The only other healer was SoS hybrid hero, running Mend Body and Soul + Spirit Light which I disabled unless Burst monk was below 10 energy. I also didn't go into my shield set and ran survivor so that I took full damage.

You need mitigation (prot spirit, ST, SY!, minions, etc.) or you're screwing if you just run a Healing burst monk with no other healer though. The 140ish heal isn't enough to save anyone. I had Gehraz die from an armor ignoring spike when I waded into a group of 4 djinns and 3 Roaring ethers.

AndroBubbles · Dec 14, 2010, 05:31 AM // 05:31

@LifeInfusion: My suggestion would be to drop a point from healing/divine favor respectively. Your direct healing won't be affected as much as it seems it will be, and you still get respectable party heals with 12 DF+Healing Burst. This allows you to spec in prot. That said, I don't trust heroes to use hybrid builds efficiently. They'll waste prot spirits when they should be healing.

LifeInfusion · Dec 14, 2010, 01:24 PM // 13:24

That's why I said "needs micro". I always disable prot spirit. Aegis is okay although if you use Glyph you better disable Glyph + aegis.

11+1=12 Heal
10+1+1=12 DF
10+1=11 Prot

Seems kind of overkill to me, simply because you only need 10 prot. 10 Prot gives you 1 second longer SoA and Aegis. I'm not sure if that's good enough to warrant dropping 2HP from seed, 3HP every 4 seconds from Burst on top of the 13 extra you get from spot heals. I'll give it a whirl though. I'm always open to new ideas in this horribly stagnant meta.

Healing prayers doesn't scale much (the only exception is probably WoH, Vigorous Spirit, Healing Seed since you'll get more than 10HP), so I pretty much pump DF as much as possible when running burst.

I'm having trouble reasoning taking a Burst monk over a Restoration rit with Rejuvenation and PwK though (other than Seed, which is pretty awesome). Spirit Light heals more and you can spec in Channeling for energy management and splinter. I guess the problem is nobody wants to run restoration.

Xenomortis · Dec 14, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Seems kind of overkill to me, simply because you only need 10 prot. 10 Prot gives you 1 second longer SoA and Aegis. I'm not sure if that's good enough to warrant dropping 2HP from seed, 3HP every 4 seconds from Burst on top of the 13 extra you get from spot heals. I'll give it a whirl though. I'm always open to new ideas in this horribly stagnant meta.

9+1 Prot is sufficient. If the att points work so you hit 10+1 then fine.
I think a longer lasting Prot Spirit is a little undervalued on a Monk. There's real value in only having to cast it once on someone through a longer fight.
The health drops from a lower DF shouldn't make that much difference and should not affect the outcome of a fight.

Looking at my options currently, one of the drivers stopping me from running Healing Burst is the 3-way spec I'm looking at. I don't want to have to pump DF all that high and if I don't have a high Healing Prayers rank, I don't have a strong single target heal.

JDRyder · Dec 14, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

9+1 Prot is sufficient. If the att points work so you hit 10+1 then fine.
I think a longer lasting Prot Spirit is a little undervalued on a Monk. There's real value in only having to cast it once on someone through a longer fight.
The health drops from a lower DF shouldn't make that much difference and should not affect the outcome of a fight.

Looking at my options currently, one of the drivers stopping me from running Healing Burst is the 3-way spec I'm looking at. I don't want to have to pump DF all that high and if I don't have a high Healing Prayers rank, I don't have a strong single target heal.

So put WoH on the other monk in the party

Xenomortis · Dec 14, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

So put WoH on the other monk in the party

Yes, this is something I commented on in my first two posts.
I've yet to have the opportunity to try it - pug monks insist on HB or UA and I'll never convince my guildies to run a dual-monk backline.

But that's not at all relevant to my previous post.

LifeInfusion · Dec 14, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I'll run Burst with you. It seems overkill with a UA though.

Xenomortis · Dec 14, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

You'd run two hybrids - one with WoH and one with Burst.
Running Burst with a UA is silly.

Lanier · Dec 15, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

@Lifeinfusion: On heroes, because of their insane need for energy management, i would forget hybriding and run inspiration e-management on monks. Pdrain and waste not want not are what I use, and this leaves 6 skill slots for healing or protting, depending on a hero. I prefer not to use hybrids on heroes because it would mean a 4 way attribute split or no energy management, which is really tough on monk heroes (they don't use GoLE well at all... so don't bother with it).

Chthon · Dec 15, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You'd run two hybrids - one with WoH and one with Burst.
Running Burst with a UA is silly.

Burst mimicking UA has really insane healing power. Unfortunately, it means that you've dedicated at least 1.5 of your backline's bars to just redup.